What Does a Humanist Life Stance Look Like in Practice? with Christian Lomsdalen

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Gary and Leon mark World Humanist Day — sharing a brief history of how the 21st of June became the humanist calendar's most important date, from the American Humanist Association's grassroots observances in the 1980s to its official adoption by the AHA and Humanists International in the 1990s. Leon also notes that blasphemy laws have now been repealed in Northern Ireland — a meaningful milestone on this year's World Humanist Day. Gary introduces a three-stage model of humanist organisation development (persecution, secularism campaigning, lived humanism) and the team shares news of their upcoming London staff gathering, including a canoeing session.

This week's guest is Christian Lomsdalen, President of the Norwegian Humanist Association (Human-Etisk Forbund), a position he has held since 2021. Christian is a Norwegian academic, scholar of religion, and educational podcaster whose podcast has reached up to 200,000 yearly listeners in Norway. He and Gary discuss what it means to build a fully-realised humanist life stance — covering 75 years of humanist confirmation ceremonies, the NHA's new chaplaincy programme in hospitals and the military, the Ungtring 2030 free speech project for young people, the Humanist Compass leadership programme, and the European Humanist Services Network. The episode closes with a preview of the Stumbling Cafe, an informal dialogue event Christian will be hosting at the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa.

In this episode we cover

• World Humanist Day history — from the AHA in the 1980s to the official June 21 designation
• A three-stage model of humanist organisation development
• Humanist confirmations in Norway
• Humanist chaplaincy in hospitals, prisons and the military
• Free speech and leadership projects for young people
• What are "Stumbling Cafes"?

Further reading and references

• Norwegian Humanist Association (English): https://www.human.no/om-oss/norwegian-humanist-association
• Humanist confirmations in Norway: https://www.human.no/seremonier/humanistisk-konfirmasjon/humanist-confirmation
• Christian Lomsdalen — Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Lomsdalen
• European Humanist Services Network (EHSN): https://humanistservices.eu/

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🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome and happy World Humanist Day

Leon Langdon 0:05

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanist International. With me, Leon Langdon. And me, Gary McLelland. Each week we'll be discussing news, research, policy developments, and campaigns related to freedom of thought around the world. Later in today's episode, you'll hear from Christian Lomsdalen, who is the president of the Norwegian Humanist Association. But Gary, before that, I feel like we need to wish each other or or our listeners a belated at this point Happy World Humanist Day.

Gary McLelland 0:30

Yes, Happy World Humanist Day, Leo. And we're recording this the day after World Humanist Day on the 22nd of June. By the time this goes out, it will have been up like a week ago, but but the the good wishes persevere nonetheless.

Leon Langdon 0:41

You might know this. Why actually is it on June 21st? It's like somewhere Celstic.

Gary McLelland 0:45

Yes, that's part of it. So World Humanist Day started being celebrated, if you like, by the American Humanist Association and some of its chapters in the 1980s, and it wasn't really an official thing, but it was felt that you know there's there's world day of different things, and it was felt that a day to kind of commemorate and I guess mark the importance of humanism was a good thing to do. And it wasn't until the 1990s, actually, that American Humanist Association and us, Humanists International, passed a series of resolutions to sort of agree that yes, we will mark the 21st of June, summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere as World Humanist Day. So ever since then it's been a point in the calendar to kind of recognize humanism.

Leon Langdon 1:28

I think Harry did a great social media post, even just looking back on the achievements over the last year, everything from new ceremonies being launched in different parts of the world, and then closer to where you and I are, even blasphemy laws being repealed in in Northern Ireland. I think it's been a it's been a pretty good year overall. I mean, the the world is tough as as we've I know season one, I feel like we talked constantly about religious nationalism and everything else, and this season two, to be fair, it's it's a tough world. But I do feel like not only are we, but I think really the heart of the movement, the humanist organizations, our members around the world, are really fighting the good fight, as it were.

Gary McLelland 2:01

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think it is important, whilst we are going through these unprecedented global challenges, to also find some of the hope and the positive news to celebrate.

Leon Langdon 2:11

Yeah, I think listeners have uh a conversation with Christians to look forward to. And I know the Norwegians do so much kind of across a real sort of taking humanism as a life stance. You know, there can be debate within the movement even as to what humanism means and what it is, but I think looking for real embodied, lived humanism, you know, from birth to death, as it were, this sort of one life that the humanists believe we have, I think is is really embodied by a lot of the work that that they do up there.

Gary McLelland 2:36

There's

Three stages of humanist organisation development

Gary McLelland 2:37

an interesting actually article that one of our former members of staff published. Um, he proposed a three-stage model of development for a humanist organization, starting off in a country where humanists are persecuted. And so we would think maybe of a country like Afghanistan, not legal to set up a humanist organization, you would be very heavily persecuted for doing so. So the initial starting point would be gathering together as a group and starting those alliances. Then you would move into stage two, which would be okay, you can exist and you have the right to, you know, exist as humanists and so on, but because of a dominant influence of religion, because of the lack of secularism and separation of church and state and rule of law and so on, the biggest preoccupation of your organization will be campaigning for secularism, for the removal of church privileges or religious privileges so that you can exist in a sort of semi-equal civic space. And then the third stage would be once you had made some progress towards achieving that secular balance, that open, free society, and then it comes down to the real nitty-gritty of humanism. Like, how do we actually live as humanists? How do you embrace the naturalistic life, the one life that we have? How do you actually live that out and embody it and practice? So, anyway, that just came to my mind. We should probably dig that article out and publish it because I think it's quite an interesting lens through which to see some of the different challenges.

Leon Langdon 3:54

I think it's also then particularly interesting for us as an international organization to be across those three contexts. You know, we have research, which, you know, the Freedom of Thought Report, which obviously looks at every country and sort of has to, I guess, condense all of those dimensions. We do advocacy across those three. I think, you know, we obviously do a lot of work on, for example, like you said, Afghanistan or countries where where you, you know, there's blasphemy laws where you cannot be openly non-religious, but then also in in that sort of middle category where there are, you know, maybe more, there's more that can be achieved, for lack of a better word. And that's, I feel, really where we can kind of elevate our members' voices internationally. And then of course, working with with the Norwegians and many others who who are very lucky and have done a lot of work to get to that sort of third category. I really like that. I think speaking of being an international organization for our listeners, hopefully by the time this goes out, we will no longer be experiencing a heat wave across the UK and and Western Europe. But I'm personally wishing we had an air-conditioned office right now, but also there's kind of a lot of conversations that that we're having about that sort of being international, being representative and represented around the world. Obviously, we we have members of staff around the world, but I think

HI: Building a global team from a London hub

Leon Langdon 5:05

we're also trying, Gary, to to have more sort of in-person or to simulate some sort of in-person stuff. That's right, yes.

Gary McLelland 5:11

It's a constant challenge. I mean, there there's downsides to being a team solely based in London with having less international perspectives on the staff team, and then there's downsides to having everybody work remotely. And we're trying to see what we can do to be creative about that. So, for example, today we had an online session, which was a sort of joint session with the board and the staff to review the Freedom of Thought Report, some of the challenges and opportunities, and some of the monitoring and evaluation that we're doing on the work behind the Freedom of Thought Report. So it's just one of the ways. I mean, I gave the example to the board that um, you know, when I worked in previous NGOs, quite a common thing to do was to have a sort of open day where all the staff would be in the office and you would invite board members in. And it wasn't a formal meeting, but they would just go around the office and chat to people and say, hi Leon, you know, what are you working on and how are things going? And they would just pick up a sense of things, you know, like there's a busy project happening, I can see that people are very preoccupied or you know, understand what's underlying all the work that we do. So we're trying to do things that we can to create that sense of togetherness and openness that is difficult to do otherwise. Because when we think about board meetings, we have three or four in-person board meetings per year, but it's it's really a small touch point throughout the whole year that we get to actually sit down and work together. So we're trying to find more ways to be creative about that.

Leon Langdon 6:27

And we're all going to be together this time next week in London as well, Gary. I think we're going canoeing.

Gary McLelland 6:32

That's right. But we're having our quarterly staff meetings, so we'll be together for two or three days and we'll be going through a lot of planning for the Congress, evaluating previous work. We'll we'll continue to do some of our internal work on AI and how we're using different AI tools and different tech tools and things like that. And have some dinners, you know. A very important part of this, like you've mentioned, is you know, being remote and not having much of a chance to spend time together. I think it's just really important that we actually spend some time, have a nice meal together, get to know each other. And then, yes, as a bit of a team building activity, we're going to be doing canoeing. So I've not done that for a very long time. I think it'll be interesting. Hopefully, it won't be too warm when we're out and about in London. Again, hopefully, if the heat wave is still going by then, I'm gonna be worried. Yeah, maybe we'll have to get in the water, but that doesn't sound like a terribly wise idea either.

Leon Langdon 7:19

That grim thought, I think now would be a lovely time to introduce our guest, Christian.

Gary McLelland 7:24

Christian

Meet Christian Lomsdalen, Educator, Humanist Leader, Podcaster

Gary McLelland 7:25

Lomsdalen is a Norwegian academic, scholar of religion, and the current president of the Norwegian Humanist Association, a position he has held since his election in 2021. He is widely recognized in Norway as a prominent secular humanist leader, academic researcher, as well as being an educational podcaster. So, Christian, welcome to this Freedom of Thought Podcast.

Christian Lomsdalen 7:47

Thank you, Gary, and thank you for having me on this podcast. I have been looking forward to this.

Leon Langdon 7:52

Thank you so much for joining us, Christian. I really do feel like that last point from Gary, despite all of the other incredible things you do, I feel like that might be a great point to start. You're a podcaster yourself. You've told us you're a listener to this podcast, but you host a podcast yourself and have done so for much longer, and this podcast existed. I'd love if you could tell us a little bit about that and tell our listeners about it.

Christian Lomsdalen 8:12

Yes, thank you, Leon. I have been running an educational podcast for the last nine years. It has had up to 200,000 yearly listeners, so it's a fairly big podcast in a Norwegian setting. Now it's more on a hobby basis again for uh the time being. It was very fun for many years, but uh one always grows tired of a hobby in the end. But I also have a humanist podcast, which I do sometimes with live feeds on Facebook as well, and uh I have a sexology podcast as well with the Norwegian Association for Clinical Sexologists. Wow.

Gary McLelland 8:49

Amazing range

The power of humanist confirmation ceremonies

Gary McLelland 8:50

of interests. We were together last month, Christian, in Oslo, where Humanists International had a board meeting, very kindly hosted by the Norwegian Humanist Association. And during that weekend, the Norwegian Humanist Association invited us all as guests to one of the secular humanist uh confirmation ceremonies. And I think I mentioned to you at the time, but actually one of the first trips I did as chief executive of Humanist International was to Oslo to meet um with the Norwegian Humanist Association and went to a humanist confirmation ceremony. As someone coming from a culture where that's not typical, and that the only real sort of confirmation ceremonies we have here that I'm aware of in the UK are through the Catholic Church, it was quite a remarkable thing to see. It's it's this group ceremony where the young people all experience it together with their families. It's obviously very artistic, and there's poetry, there's readings, there's music in Oslo Town Hall. I mean, it's a really beautiful ceremony. And what we found out last month is that um these ceremonies are now 75 years old being practiced in Norway. So that must be now quite a major part of Norwegian culture to have these ceremonies.

Christian Lomsdalen 9:59

Yes, and I'm very happy that we got to show you how our ceremonies are. We are immensely proud of the confirmation ceremonies, but they are also an important part of who we are as an organization and for why we started. So we started actually with confirmations five years before we were incorporated as an organization. So the confirmations have existed five years longer than the Norwegian Humanist Association. And all of this started because our founder he wanted his daughter to have an alternative to the Christian confirmation. And in Norway, the confirmation ceremonies in the church has been obligatory by the state. So you had to have the confirmation ceremonies by law until 1912, so it's a very steadfast tradition in the Norwegian context. And this meant that even after it was no longer obligatory to have, almost everybody did this. So it has been a rite of passage for Norwegian youth for uh centuries. So it's quite ingrained in our tradition. And when this father, Christian Horn, established this tradition together with other parents, and afterwards established the Norwegian Humanist Association, this has become an important tradition for us. So the name bears a resemblance to the Christian confirmation, and also that youth are being taught something. But of course, what they are being taught is not necessarily the same. And for me as a humanist leader, and for me as a humanist as a confirmation leader, I have been that for many years. What is the most important thing is not the ceremony. The ceremony is nice and pretty and of course important. So what is important is what we teach the youth as a part of the course that leads up to the ceremony. That's the most important thing for me. And being able to talk about humanism as a life stance, talking about critical thinking, democracy, human rights in a different way than one often does in school. That is really important, especially with all the polarization that is out there. And for us as an organization, we have contributed to uh the confirmation tradition during these 75 years. So both the Norwegian church, us and researchers acknowledge that a confirmation in Norway would probably not be as large a tradition today as it is without the Norwegian humanists, because the youths they didn't they ended up choosing between one or the other, or they didn't choose that I want to be confirmed or not. They chose between two different kinds. Now there's actually more different kinds of confirmations. So Norway is the only country in the world with Buddhist confirmations, which is my favorite factoid about confirmations. Because this is not something that one does in other countries in the same level. Of course, there are other countries with secular confirmations, but Buddhist confirmations, that is a very rare Norwegian thing. And that we have contributed to this I find quite interesting.

Leon Langdon 13:06

I

Humanist chaplaincy in hospitals and the military

Leon Langdon 13:07

think the work of your organization, Christian, across so many different parts of Norwegian life is really something incredible. And I think it's something many of our other member organizations across the world really look at. And I know as well as the confirmations, there's baby naming ceremonies, there's weddings, there's funerals, but also there's chaplaincy, and I think that really speaks to what you're talking about about giving people the kind of skills to get through life.

Christian Lomsdalen 13:32

Yes, and doing chaplaincy is something that is quite new for us. Uh, this is something that started back in 2021, so we haven't been doing this or 2019. Well, it's fairly recent. However, we decided to get into doing chaplaincy and doing it in a more organized way. So, of course, we always had our celebrants being able to go out and meet people that were grieving or similar, but with our expansion into humanist existential care, we have we are now working to get our uh chaplains into the army, into the into universities, into hospitals, into prisons, into different kinds of institutions where people might need existential care and where they are not able to leave for other uh leave to meet us. It's often more difficult than if you are in well living at home, living your normal regular life. So that is important. And here we really need to learn from other countries as has been doing this far longer than we have. So and this is a quite quite a large uh painting to paint because we need to get into these institutions as well. So at the moment there are about 50 priests that are chaplains in the military and two humanist chaplains, and there are depending on how you count where we are in the process, two hospital humanists as well. And of course, there are about 50 priests doing the same job. So this is a quite gradual work, and we need to explain that we are needed. But what we do see when we get out there, when we are in the institutions, when people have the opportunity to choose uh a humanist service. They ask for a humanist service as often as they ask for a churchly service. Sometimes they don't care who they want to talk to, but that is of course okay. I just want to talk to someone, and someone that is not going to treat me or be a psychologist or different kind of services, but I just want to talk to an existential care worker, and that is of course okay. But of those that I want this kind of existential worker or that kind of existential worker, we see that people ask for a humanist existential care worker as much as they ask for a Christian existential care worker. So that we find quite satisfying and a good fact to bring out to the hospitals, to the military and different. So we need to learn from the UK, from the Netherlands, from Belgium, from other countries where they have been doing this for a long time. And it's necessary for us to because it's expected of us from our members that this is something that a lifestyle organization provides, that this is something that we need to provide to our members and to the greater public because people sometimes have difficulties in their lives, and it you might need to talk to someone that does not want to treat you, just want to listen to you and help you organize your thoughts.

Gary McLelland 16:36

I think it's an amazing programme, and from my point of view, it goes to the heart of our values as humanists. We talk about living the one life we have and freedom, and I think the reality and the fragility and preciousness that that can bring to life. But I think you know, we have to be honest that it's also a way of life that or a a life stance which can bring about existential concerns, as you might expect, obviously. But you know, we we don't have an expectation of an afterlife or some better version of a life yet to come. For us, this is the one life that we have, and as we all know from from our experiences being human beings, it can be very tough at times. So to me, it's it's at the very core of what it means to be a humanist is to to be there for people in their a time of trials and tribulations.

Christian Lomsdalen 17:22

We need to fix the issues here and now, not wait until next time.

Ung Ytring 2030 - free speech for young people

Gary McLelland 17:26

Definitely. And and thinking about that, uh obviously they're talking about the whole range of Norwegian society that you know you can offer services to there. But one of the things that that we've obviously been aware of recently is that uh you have a new project aimed at young people in particular to help them with their voice in society and issues around speech and free speech and things like that. Maybe you could tell us a bit about that.

Christian Lomsdalen 17:49

Yeah, absolutely. We have a project that is called the Ung Itring 2030 project, which is well, Young Voices 2030, which is a project that we do together with some other organizations, the Norwegian Institute for Human Rights. In Norwegian, I would say fritter, but free speech and other organizations, and we do this project together with them where we get young people together to uh discuss and tell us grown-ups how the status is on free speech for young adults for the 15 to 30 years olds, and help us understand what are the issues they need that they think about when it comes to free speech and what they think about, and they produce a report that is of course sent to the politicians and to the different organizations and to give an insight into what young people think about their possibility to have free speech. And of course, in this, when all of these youth meet, they also get training in using their voices so that we have seen a lot of media participation from these kids that have been part of this project uh so far. And the idea is that this project is going to run for several years and produce different reports, and they meet up in regions so that they can discuss in their areas but also nationally. So this is about regional and national projects. We often talk about how difficult it can be for young people to say what they mean and what they feel, and we talk about how young people feel about speaking out on different topics in their classrooms or online or different places. This project tries to take this seriously by getting to know what they actually think about this. And I hope that this is something that will lead to good results for our free speech, but also something that will potentially happen also other places.

Humanist Compass — leadership training for 15-18 year olds

Leon Langdon 19:47

You also have the humanist compass uh project, which is looking at 15 to 18 year olds on kind of similar topics, is that right?

Christian Lomsdalen 19:54

Yes, absolutely. Uh the difference is that the Ung Ytring project is broader than just the humanists, so that is open for youth from different parts of Norwegian society, and they come from many different backgrounds. But the humanistic compass project is our dab into leadership training for 15 to 18 year olds, and of course, free speech is some of the things that they discuss there and learn about. But it gives us, of course, the possibility to influence more of our members' lives longer than just the confirmation period, and also, of course, welcoming them into the organization in a nice way, and giving them training, giving them information, and giving them, of course, a community. And we haven't been so good at doing this to bridge the gap between being a confirmant and being a confirmant leader or active in the organization in different manners. So it's nice to have a project that tries to take this seriously and tries to take the youth seriously and including them into the organization and enabling them to have their voice also inside and outside the organization.

European Humanist Services Network (EHSN)

Gary McLelland 21:03

That's an amazing project. You mentioned a bit earlier, Christian, about the um the work that you're doing on the chaplaincy work and learning from other organizations across Europe. And we've mentioned on the podcast before that one of the big ways that collaborations are happening with humanist organizations right now is through a network of members of Humanists International have set up the European Humanist Services Network, which is looking at things like the chaplaincy, uh wedding provision, different aspects of the services to do with existential care that humanist organizations are offering across Europe and ways to learn from each other and help each other develop. And the Norwegian Humanist Association has really played a leading role in that collaboration. Maybe you want to tell us a bit about that, how that works going?

Christian Lomsdalen 21:51

Absolutely. What is the most important thing about the European Humanist Services Network is that many of the organizations are quite varied in. Size and in what they do and in what they are really good at. And even though the Norwegian Humanist Association is a quite big organization with a long track record, for example, in the confirmation training sector, we are quite a recent provider of existential care. And we are not doing as many weddings as, for example, the Scottish humanists do. So we need to learn from all the other organizations. And well, some of them want to learn from us and some wants to learn from the other humanist organizations in Europe. And being able to learn from each other is really important if we want to build a strong humanist movement in Europe and in the rest of the world so that we can well not do all the same mistakes in different places and learn to be the best humanist movement that we can be. And we have now seen an unity on what is a humanist wedding. To agree what a humanist wedding is, it can sound so simple, but at the same time it's really important that we know what we are talking about. One has also agreed upon what is actually the name of the existential care, what language should we use to talk about this so that we know that we talk about the same things. So the EHSN network has focused on youth education, existential care and ceremonies. And it's so interesting to hear about all the different kinds of discussions and all the learning that happens on different in these meetings and to learn about the different sub-projects that I set up. So for me as a president of the Norwegian humanist, it's so good to hear about all the ways that we can be an example for other countries, but also more importantly for me as the president, what we can learn from other humanist movements in different parts of Europe to be a better humanist organization for our members. So that is really important. So I'm looking really forward to what we can do with this project uh now and in the future. So you can hear more about it in the World Congress in Ottawa in August.

Gary McLelland 24:10

Absolutely. And uh as we've mentioned before, we're incredibly grateful that the EHSN network is the main sponsor of this year's World Humanist Congress. So you will definitely hear a lot more about that collaboration if you're not already a part of it in Ottawa. And in actual fact, one of the things which has been very interesting for us is you know, we we've been incredibly impressed by the way that this collaboration has developed. And I think, like you mentioned, one of the interesting aspects of it is it's it's sort of asymmetrical, it's networks which are growing um at different rates and involving different people based on what's, you know, we've talked about the fact that in some cultures the the humanist uh confirmation ceremonies just might not be something that would get traction. So there's a lot of differences, but moving forward on the issues which we agree about. Actually, one of the things that we've been uh working on in Humanists International, we've been we've been talking about ways of assisting regional development for some time. And in the past month, we've just appointed David Panida as our first ever Latin American development officer. So he'll be looking at different ways to learn from other parts of the world. So we're actually hoping that David will be able to join the EHSN meeting later on in the year in Romania to learn from some of the things that have developed there so that that can be an inspiration for some form of regional uh growth and development in Latin America. So I think there's a lot of different lines and connections that we can hopefully draw across the world here.

Christian Lomsdalen 25:35

Absolutely. And even though it's very different context, we can always learn from each other to be better organizations for our members and for those who want to use our services.

Leon Langdon 25:46

Thanks so much, Christian. I I guess we're coming to the end of our time, but I was wondering if you had any sort of parting thoughts or words for the members we've been talking about for humanists around the world across the various contexts that that they find themselves in.

Christian Lomsdalen 25:59

I really look forward to meeting them all in Ottawa, at least those who are able to come to Ottawa. And I would love to chat about this in to a much greater extent with people that want to stop me during the conference in uh Ottawa. So I'm really looking forward to that. But looking outside of our countries and seeing how they do things in other places in the humanist movement is really important, I think. So I hope that we can learn from each other, and not everything that the Norwegian humanists do would look the same or be as natural a part of humanist movement in Ireland or in well Peru. So but it might be things that they do that seems why don't we do this already? And vice versa. So I'm really looking forward to meeting fellow international humanists again. Thank you, Christian.

Gary McLelland 26:49

Maybe

Ottawa Congress and Stumbling Cafe preview

Gary McLelland 26:50

one last question for me. Um, maybe we could give a very short advert to people for a demonstration which you will do in Ottawa of a stumbling cafe.

Christian Lomsdalen 26:59

Absolutely. A stumbling cafe is a very informal, dialogue-based cafe where we talk about how we during our lives stumble, what things we do badly, how we react to doing things that we are not as proud of or that we want to change afterwards. And it's a nice place to drink some coffee, talk to each other about important things, and I will guide the participants through a menu with uh both an aperitif starter, a main course, a dessert, and a uh doggy bag afterwards as well about philosophical uh thoughts about well, what do you do when we stumble through life?

Gary McLelland 27:40

Well, that sounds fantastic. Um, more details will be available on the uh Congress website. Christian, thank you so much. It's been amazing to hear about the fantastic work that you're doing in Norway. And yes, we look forward to seeing you in Ottawa.

Christian Lomsdalen 27:52

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, Christian.

Support Humanists International

Leon Langdon 27:55

If you found this episode useful, please share it with others, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave us a rating and five-star review. It makes a big difference in helping new listeners find the show. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover or someone you'd like to suggest as a guest, you can contact us via the links in the show notes. To find out more or join Humanist International, visit humanists. To the team at Humanist International, to everybody who we know very little to talk about. Thank you for listening to this episode of Freedom.