Humanist Values Are Ideal For This Moment with Andrew Copson

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This week, Leon reports live from Geneva at the UN Human Rights Council, where a special session on children in armed conflict brings the human cost of global conflict into sharp focus. Against that backdrop, Gary and Leon reflect on the US military action in Iran and what it means for the international rules-based order.

We are then joined by Andrew Copson, Chief Executive of Humanists UK and former President of Humanists International for a decade, for a wide-ranging conversation on leadership, global humanist growth, and why, "humanist values are ideal for our modern, plural world." Andrew speaks candidly about the recklessness of unlawful military action, the promise of a more globally diverse humanist movement, and why coming together in person at the World Humanist Congress still matters more than ever.

In this episode we cover

• Reflections from Geneva and the UN Human Rights Council
• What the military action in Iran and means for international law and humanist advocacy
• Andrew's decade as President of Humanists International
• Diversifying the board and growing humanism in the global south
• The World Humanist Congress 2026 in Canada
• The Resolutions Committee and why humanist declarations matter
• Why humanist values are uniquely suited to a plural, interconnected world

Further reading and references

• Humanists International Statement on the Crisis in Iran: https://humanists.international/2026/03/crisis-in-iran-opposing-state-repression/
• UN Human Rights Council: https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/about-council
• Humanists International Congress Declarations (including Oslo Declaration on Peace, 2011 and Luxembourg Declaration on AI, 2025): https://humanists.international/congress-declarations/

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🎶Music: Horizon by Simon Folwar

Podcast transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or omissions. They are provided to make our content more accessible, but should not be considered a fully accurate record of the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome and Geneva Update

Gary McLelland 0:42

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanists International with me, Gary McClelland. And me, Leon Langdon. Nice to see you again, Leon. Last week we were discussing the Human Rights Council and how that sits within the different UN mechanisms. You had just landed actually in Geneva, I believe, that evening. So you've now been in Geneva for a week. Tell us what have you been up to.

Children Speak On War And Rights

Human Cost of the Iran Conflict

Leon Langdon 1:04

We got out for a nice run yesterday, which is about as exciting as this. No, I'm joking. It's been great to be here. It's long days. I've been in meetings today since 9 a.m. or so, but it's been exciting. There's a lot happening, most of it for better. I think having been here for the week and being able to digest it. And obviously, I feel like the constant theme we're talking about is the challenges of multilateralism or to multilateralism. There's a real spirit of resilience around. I feel like people are really determined to prove the worth of the UN right now. And that goes from states to UN staff and all the way down to civil society, of which there are many. Just today, I spoke at the annual panel on the rights of the child, and it was so poignant. And I was really struck by the children in the room. So states literally were handing the microphones to some states have sort of children's parliaments or they have National Youth Council representatives. And so many states were represented by children, but also the same for civil society. I was one of the oldest giving a statement, which is seldom the case. But I think I was really struck in that. And the subject was children in armed conflict. And I was really struck by just the centering of children's voices as being a really tough moment in a lot of ways against the backdrop of what's happening around the world in armed conflict, but also a really important moment to remember that we're here to safeguard multilateralism, but fundamentally the world and people's rights for the sake of future generations.

Gary McLelland 2:30

Thanks, Leon. And I think what you say about going for a run, I think that is important. It's something, as people probably know, the team at Humanists International is very small. There's 10 of us that have to do all this work and it involves a lot of travel. You know, me and you probably travel the most out of the team, and it's exhausting. And I think from a well-being point of view, it is important to make sure that we take time to keep healthy and so on. But in terms of the important work of the Human Rights Council, one of the things obviously that that's been coming up over the past week and that you and I have spoken a lot about, but maybe we should just inform our listeners about is the situation in Iran and conflicts generally, US acts of aggression, contrary to international law. Um, you know, we're discussing at the moment the making of a statement at the Human Rights Council in Iran. Can you tell me what's your thoughts on what's happening at the moment? And is there discussions happening at the Human Rights Council with other NGOs or states around this situation in Iran?

Welcome Andrew Copson

Leon Langdon 3:27

There are discussions happening even before any of this US action, just back in last month, or it might have been the end of January, there was actually a special session of the Human Rights Council called on Iran. And we were part of a coalition of NGOs who signed a statement calling for that special session to take place, and within that we saw the extension of the mandate of, for example, the fact-finding mission to Iran. I think ultimately, taking the bigger picture view, there's a lot of commentary on the human rights abuses that had been committed by a theocratic regime in Iran, you know, being used as pretextual justification for acts of aggression by the US or outright condemnation of said acts of aggression, or rather, yeah, without an acknowledgement of the human rights abuses within Iran. What I think Humanist International's position is ultimately that a concern over the human rights violations within Iran, committed in the name, more often than not, of religion, and concern over the violations of the law of armed conflict within Iran and in neighboring states, we've seen a girl school struck and numerous civilians killed. They are not mutually exclusive positions, and in fact, they're grounded in the exact same shared concern for international law. They are both grounded in the UN Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but ultimately they're grounded in a shared concern for people. It is people who are going to be hurt by all of this. Humanists and Humanists International has always centered human rights over states, people over states, people over institutions, and people over egos. And ultimately, it is going to be people who are hurt the most. It is civilians being killed in Iran and in neighboring states that we are most concerned about. And frankly, I don't think it matters whether they're being killed by a theocratic regime that are cracking down on protests, or they're being killed by bombs sent from US bases in neighboring countries. It is equally harrowing and it is equally troubling and really awful to be watching. But there are conversations ongoing with society colleagues and states trying to take action on it at the Human Rights Council for sure.

A Decade of Change & Challenges

Gary McLelland 5:39

Thanks, Leon. It's obviously a really uh testing time right now for the international system, for the rule of law. And I think that's one thing that we'll be able to pick up with our podcast guest this week. This week we are joined by Andrew Cobson. Andrew has spent over two decades at the forefront of humanist leadership and human rights campaigning. He is the chief executive of Humanist UK, a position he has held since 2010, and was also the president of Humanists International from 2015 until last year when he stood down in 2025. Andrew is also a published author and a familiar voice in global media and international forums, advocating for humanist values, freedom, dignity, and human rights for all. We're delighted to welcome Andrew to the podcast today to discuss his time as president of Humanists International, the upcoming World Humanist Congress, and current threats to free thought globally. Andrew, thank you very much for being with us today for this episode of the Freedom of Thought podcast. Last year you stood down as president of Humanists International after an amazing decade at a leadership position. Can you just give us your reflections on how Humanist International has changed over the 10 years that you've been president?

Andrew Copson 6:51

Ten glorious years, I think you should call it, Gary. I thought we agreed that when I stood down. That's the only reason I agreed to stand down. Ten glorious years, it should always be referred to as. It's changed enormously. When I first became president, the board was a very small group of almost exclusively European, rather elderly. That's nothing against older people, but nonetheless, unrepresentatively older than the global membership. And we were very limited in terms of our staff team. We only had one and a half people. And our impact was, I think, well regarded in human rights circles, in particular at international institutions. I think we had a more limited impact than we've now got under your leadership, of course, and the leadership of the excellent board. When last year I looked around the room, I saw a board that was genuinely globally diverse: people from the global south, people from Africa, people from Asia, people from Latin America, with a low average age, 50% women, and a much more thriving and dynamic global community of humanists than when I started. None of which I think has anything to do with me. I think it was a group effort by the board and by excellent staff leadership and the growth of humanism in the global south, where it's increasingly galvanizing people's efforts for a better world.

Gary McLelland 8:01

Amazing. I guess one of the things that may have changed over the 10 years that you were the president is the geopolitical landscape in which Humanists International operated. I wonder if you have any reflections on how things were when you took over as president in 2015 versus when you left in 2025.

Opportunities For Global Humanism

Andrew Copson 8:19

Since that time, in the 10 years that I was president, obviously the world has only got more chaotic and dangerous for humanists, I think, who increasingly are subject to prosecution when they put their heads above the parapet. And ironically, the more they the more we organize in the global south, the more targeted we become as humanists for persecution, I think, because if you put your heads above the parapet. There's also, of course, the well-known and well-noted decline in the rules-based order. Humanist International, as well as being a sort of agency to support humanist organizations in their development, its other big role, obviously, is to represent humanist concerns globally at the international institutions. Well, I think that the international institutions themselves have become increasingly under threat, increasingly unstable because of the actions, the lawless actions of many states, especially bigger states, and especially the US tendency recently to think to undermine multilateral institutions. So they've been the biggest changes, I think, both of which are difficult for humanist internationals, they all, as they are for all international NGOs. I think the at the same time, to be positive, there is a growth of freedom that has benefited humanists in the global south in generally. Like the English language internet um has led to a huge spread. I mean, you will remember as well as I did a guy that you know a few years ago we had far fewer people from countries that didn't themselves have a clear humanist tradition. And now humanists online from different countries can connect with humanists in places where their humanist organizations are very well supported, have long standing arrangements, um, have more money, have more capacity. And so that connectivity that's also a feature of the changed world over the last 10 years has been an official status not just doom and gloom, although there is plenty of doom and gloom to go around, there are also benefits.

Leon Langdon 10:07

And looking forward, Andrew, from 2026, obviously you're no longer on the board, but what are the opportunities you see forthcoming with humanists international or for humanness international?

Diversity Wins and Congress Regrets

Andrew Copson 10:18

Well, I think that's a good question, Leon. And let me take this opportunity to commend you for your international advocacy efforts that I've really enjoyed keeping up with in the last few months since leaving the board. I think that's one area where um we do have a lot of opportunities, because for every weakness and the decline in the efficacy of international institutions is certainly a weakness, there is an opportunity. I think that humanist international, by continuing to participate in the multilateral order and to continue to speak up for the liberal values that inform it, which are the right values, to see us through both these present difficulties and for the long-term betterment of global society, I think is an enormous opportunity. I've always thought, and I'm sure we all have on this call, and probably listeners too, that humanist values are ideal for our modern age, our plural world, and a world that can only ever be brought together by universal values, never by shared beliefs. And I think that our contribution should continue to be, and it's an opportunity for us to continue to advocate for that global order. So I think that is an opportunity. I do think, I do hope that Humanist International continues to have that function and that purpose by representing the global humanist international institutions. I think that where we need to do more, and I regret not having been able to do more myself during my time as president, is to support humanist organizations in the global south who are setting up, who need leadership development, who need support, whether that is the traditional transfer of money from the north to the south, which I do absolutely heartily approve of and think more should be done in relation to that. Whether it's simply connection and support, I think that second purpose of Humanist International, of being an agency for humanist organizations whose audience and whose constituency is humanist organizations themselves and humanist leaders all around the world, but particularly uh today in the global south, I think is the other opportunity. Because really, if we don't, no one else will right now. One of the things that's happening in societies everywhere is that the space of civil society is shrinking and under threat, either because of government intrusion into that space or because of limited resources, increasingly limited resources that individuals have to support their own civil society activity. And I think that Humanist International needs to be there to support people in those reduced circumstances.

Gary McLelland 12:35

Thanks, Andrew. I wonder if I could ask you, maybe just um looking back again over the last 10 years, if there's one decision, one policy, one action that you took as president of Humanist International. And we can say, with the exception of being on my appointment committee, of course, this stands out to you as a real key achievement for your team.

Andrew Copson 12:56

Well, let's not just forget about that, Gary, because I do think it was very important that you've done a sterling work as chief executive of Humanist International. Should we congratulate you for it? Uh, much of the growth and organization in the last few years is down to your leadership and the leadership of your wider team. So I won't diminish, as you've invited me to do, the importance of your appointment. I think the second most important thing after your appointment that was done during that time, I think was the increased diversification of the board itself. I do stand by this. That we had during my time the first African on the board, the first Asian on the board, and people from those regions, not just ethnically Asian or ethnically Africa, but the first people from those organizations in those regions on the board. And then of course we changed the rules so that there would always be someone from Latin America, always Southern Africa, always Southern Asia on the board. And I think that the promise so first of all, I think I delivered straight away in greater diversity of opinions that did genuinely globalize, not that the Europeans always liked it, but that did genuinely globalize our thinking. I think there is still a lot of promise unrealised from that, because if that's to work, if that's really to deliver on its promise, it should be the key to unlocking the potential of member organizations in those regions as well. I think that increased diversification at a board level needs to be matched by an increased diversification at the sort of jargony phrase, delivery level on the ground through the executive team. But I think that was the biggest change because it was just becoming unsustainable to claim to be a global network when leadership was entirely almost exclusively European with some North American admixtures as well. So I think I'd like to hope that will be the longest enduring impact of my time, second after your appointment. You two will go the way of all flesh, as will I, and hopefully Humans International will still be globally diverse.

Leon Langdon 14:49

And on that then, Andrew, do you have anything that you regret? Any, you know, one regret about your 10 years, anything that you would have liked to have seen over the line and didn't, or no, not at all.

Resolutions Committee

Andrew Copson 15:01

Is that what you wanted to hear? I don't believe in regrets, Leon. We must be looking forward, always looking forward, especially now. Let me think about this. Was there anything I could learn from, let's put it that way, in the time that I was president, which didn't be a quiet as well. I think that one of the things that I would learn from, I think you've already learned from, which is the new incarnation of our World Congress. I think one of the things that I do regret is that we had a lot of cancelled uh international general assemblies and congresses during my time. That wasn't my responsibility. There was the collapse of the Brazilian economy and COVID international lockdowns and all sorts of other constraints that were on us that caused us to not meet um as often in person as we might want to as a global community in as many diverse regions as we might want to. I think it's very good that after my time, you've moved now to have a genuinely global world congress every year in a different continent every year. This year, obviously, Canada. Next year, I excitedly wait to see everybody else in in Civvy Street, all of us normals wait to see where you will decide the Congress should be next year. But I think that's my I feel regretful at not having sorted that out. But then there'd be nothing for anyone else to do if we'd sorted everything out in the last 10 years. So I look with admiration on you having sorted that out after my time. Because I think although meeting online has been an incredible benefit, especially to people who we could never be in touch with in previous times, meeting face to face and connecting face to face is so important. We are humanists after all, the human dimension of our sociability. There's no replacement for it.

Gary McLelland 16:40

That's a very good point, Andrew. And I also think that it's only fair that we tell our listeners and viewers that after your retirement as president of Humanist International, you have remained committed and active within international humanism, and you've been working on our program committee to help develop an excellent range of speakers for the 2026 World Humanist Congress, and also that you've just agreed to be the chair of our resolutions committee as well. So you're also continuing to play an active role in international humanism.

Fragility of Peace & Reckless Wars

Andrew Copson 17:09

I think the resolutions committee has been so important during my time. In fact, I joined, I was first on a humanist international resolutions committee before I was president. I was on the resolutions committee for the 2011 World Humanist Congress, which adopted a really inspiring resolution on peace. And I was really happy to be part of that. I didn't chair it, but I was very happy to be part of that. And it was a very meaningful moment when you're standing in a hall of 600 humanists who've all thought carefully about these important ideas, these principles, these values, these ethics that you want to put together in a in a in as eloquent and inspiring a format as possible. And to have that moment of agreement between everyone in that sort of deliberative assembly of so many countries. And then to know that the words and thoughts and values that we put down on paper that we expressed in that moment would go on to inform humanist international's policy where it really mattered, the international institutions. Our staff would be speaking up for these values, that they would inform our member organizations when they were lobbying their own governments around the world. That really mattered to me. And so I'm very pleased to have um taken up this entirely voluntary and unremunerated position in the future of being chairing the resolutions committee. Because I think it is an amazing thing where people from so many different cultures, so many different countries, can cohere around certain values in the way we do in our resolutions at World Congresses. And I think it really matters.

Gary McLelland 18:33

Thanks, Andrew, very much. As you mentioned, the 2011 Oslo Declaration on Peace. I think, as you said, it's really important to again remind our members and our viewers that these resolutions and these policy statements that we agree upon become really important working documents. Leon right now is in Geneva where he's attending the Human Rights Council, and these documents and policies go on to inform the work that we do. And also thinking back to last year in Luxembourg when we had the Luxembourg Declaration on Artificial Intelligence, that's even gone on to inform our internal working policies on these things. But if we can just pause for a minute on the declaration on peace, because I think it's only fair maybe just to acknowledge the current circumstances that we find ourselves in at the moment, which is a world perhaps where peace is more fragile now than it perhaps has been in recent times. Of course, thinking about the American action in Iran and previous American interventions over the past few months, it's obviously a very challenging time, and I think one in which a lot of the international rules around war and diplomacy are being challenged in a way that we've never really seen in recent times. What do you think the role of humanists and humanists international, I mean, what do you think we can do in these times of challenges to the international rules-based system?

Andrew Copson 19:44

Well, I speak here in purely a personal capacity when I say that I think that the American action in Iran is completely reckless and lawless and uh wild. I mean, it's a sort of cowboy action that I think uh has is is so shocking in a way that we haven't taken the time that we should to be shocked by it because it's happened in such a uh sudden, precipitate manner. I think it's clear that humanists, like any supporters of a rules-based international legal order, should be clear that this sort of activity is unlawful, that although the regime in Iran is clearly not one that any humanist would support, it's not democratic, it doesn't respect human rights, it is a hateful regime, theocratic, joyless, ruining the lives of the people who are forced to labour under it. All of that is true, and you know I think that the international community should find ways to ameliorate the situation for the people of Iran and to support democratic change in Iran, and that might include some military action in cases where it can be lawfully conducted, but this is not it. And all that illegal military action like this does is further destabilize the world, and lawlessness is something that once it takes hold, we know from our history it's incredibly difficult to roll back. Only total war created the rules-based order that we now have. Misery of the Second World War. And I suppose humanists have to be those who continue to stand by the potential for the rules-based order to bring peace, to restore peace, and to succeed in the long term. I think we have to be hopeful for that. But it's very difficult at the moment to see how that could be how that can be brought about.

Why The World Humanist Congress Still Matters

Gary McLelland 21:41

Yeah, I think Leon and I have been talking recently about the situation in Iran and the ongoing Human Rights Council and the possibility of making a statement on that and obviously reflecting a lot on the Oslo Declaration and some of the other declarations as well. And I think when it's formulated, as as I'm guess you guessing you remember from your time on the Resolutions Committee, in such a way as to say that recognizing the challenges from the Iranian regime, all war, all conflict is a loss of the human potential for creativity, for growth, for development, for love, and for all of the positive attributes of our humanity that we want to focus on. It's only ever a waste of that. And I think that's not to try and second guess the reasons behind it and some of the potential justifications, but that as an end in of itself, war is just a complete waste of the human capacity that we strive to fulfill. Exactly right.

Leon Langdon 22:35

Just to connect the I think amidst this geopolitical strife, Andrew I'll ask you to reflect on the importance of something like the World Humanist Congress and also noting that you've obviously been integral to so many, but also organizing, I believe, the 2014 one in Oxford.

Final Messages And How To Help

Andrew Copson 22:52

Yes, the good old 2014 Congress, that was of course the best Congress ever held. But I'm sure that I'm sure that the Canadians will do their bet their best to compete with it this year. Yeah, I think you put your finger on something important early on, is that in times of strife when one can feel very hopeless, it is of course enormously fortifying to come together with people who share your ultimate values, who have that same hope and optimism and desire and resolve to work for peace, for example, in the current situation that we're in. Just as I we found it, I think, very useful to come together online during COVID, where we all shared our commitment to the scientific enterprise in developing vaccines and telling us how we needed to behave, and we shared our appreciation of those moments together. So there's a great sort of consummation to go to coming together in those sorts of times, as well as it being re-fortifying for you in the struggle that you then go away to carry up again in your own individual lives or in the lives of individual humanist organizations. So I think it is incredibly important. And I think that, you know, the intellectual content of the programme of the World Humanist Congress, where we hear speakers, where we discuss with them, we hear new ideas, is also very can be very clarifying in our own minds for thinking about how we can address different, you know, issues, including global conflict, different frameworks for doing so. The theme this year is humanism as resistance. So I'm really looking forward to hearing more about what people, the different things that people think they are resisting or we should be resisting, and also the different ways of resistance that are possible, human rights as resistance, the audacity of hope, to coin a phrase, and its role in cultivating resistance through community and other types of resistance. So I think not only does it is it good commonly to be together and fortifying, but you can also be clarifying through discussion and through hearing new voices to send us home again with better ideas. And I think it is important to have a diversity of voices. I must make a point on this podcast, given the very maleness of everyone present, that I think that it is a very good aspect of the Congresses in the now that we have them, that there are, for example, no all-male panels, that there is always global diversity in the ideas that are in front of us and that are explored, that we explore together. I think that diversity of frameworks is very valuable at Congresses too.

Gary McLelland 25:05

Thanks, Andrew. And once again, on behalf of everyone at Humanist International, thank you for your continued efforts behind the scenes to help Humanist International realize its aims and objectives and for your belief and your continued trust in what we're doing. Do you have any last messages for the listeners of our podcast before we wind up? Thank you for your service. Thank you very much, Andrew. If you have found this episode useful, please share it with others. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a rating and a five-star review. It makes a big difference in helping new listeners find the show. If there's a topic you would like us to cover or someone you'd like to suggest as a guest, you can contact us via the links in the show notes. To find out more or join Humanists International, visit humanists. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Freedom of Thought Podcast.